Thursday, May 04, 2006

Dr. Greer goes to... Canada?

Last September, Paul Hellyer, an octogenarian former Canadian Minister of the National Defence (from the 1960s), came forward and stated that he believed ET was here on Earth, and that the government was involved in a massive cover-up of this knowledge. Where did this knowledge come from? He read Phil Corso's Day After Roswell, and that convinced him. The exopolitics faction of ufology made a big deal about this development. A few comedians and political commentators had some fun with Mr. Hellyer (whose career as a political flip-flopper hasn't left him with many friends or any influence). And that was about it. Most of the rest of us saw it for what it was - a non-event (at best).

Well, Mr. Hellyer and his exopolitics chums are still at it, nattering on about the need for official "disclosure" (although Mr. Hellyer has said that he didn't see anything to disclose during his tenure as Minister of Defence!) - they have even called for hearings in the Canadian Senate on the subject of the "Cosmic Watergate" (sorry, Stan, but in part these are your illegitimate ideological "children").

In a new development, however, they've decided to bring in some "help" from south of the border.

Canada, meet Dr. Steven Greer!

On May 9th, Mr. Hellyer and Dr. Greer will be joining forces at a Toronto press conference to promote the exopolitical cause in all its glory (you can view the press release here).

That's right - Canada's exopolitics adherents, led in this case by Ontario's Mike Bird and Victor Viggiani, have enlisted the aid of the man who most American ufologists believe single-handedly killed any prospect of Congressional hearings into the UFO phenomenon back in the late 1990s... to forward the cause of Parliamentary hearings on the UFO subject in Canada!

There are many words that can be used to describe this turn of events. I'll leave it to the reader to come up with his or her own favourite, but here's mine... Nuts!

Alas, I won't be able to attend (I seriously considered flying up to Toronto to watch the circus, and get a good laugh, but I'm too busy prepping for the upcoming Best Evidence shoot). But, in the interests of common sense, here is Errol Bruce-Knapp, host of Strange Days... Indeed, in an interview with UFO Review's Stuart Miller, summarizing what people interested in the serious study of the UFO phenomenon think of Dr. Greer:

"SM: Why don’t you care for [Steven Greer]?

EBK: Because he’s a loose-cannon. The man is erratic and he can’t focus and UFOs is what we’re focussed on and this whole Star Dreams initiative, Star Wars Defence initiative, Steven Greer, the lying shysters and all of the other nonsense this man is spouting just gets in the way and up here in Canada we have one chance. Just like Greer had the one chance at the possibility of getting Senate Hearings in the United States and he blew it. He showed up at the press conference with all of these witnesses without having checked them all out and you got the Warrens and the Clifford Stones and a couple of other people there, all ready to swear on their lives, and lying shysters, some of them. So what we have now going on is an absorption of Alfred Webre and Steven Greer and all his nonsense and Michael Salla and this is a combination that ain’t gonna work. And as I’ve said to Victor [Viggiani], my concern for Victor is that he’s going to get dragged down and tarred with the same brush as all of these other people. Exopolitics ain’t going to work. They have one run at it here and they’re going to blow it."

If you doubt that Errol's view reflects a fairly broad consensus, go to UFO Updates, and run a search of Dr. Greer's name with the name of one of your favourite UFO researchers (try Dick Hall for starters).

Oh well. Maybe after the press conference is over, Dr. Greer can take any media members who show up out to Newmarket, or some other suburban area, and try to contact a few spaceships with flashlights. I'm sure that will impress them!

The shame is that some of the "Disclosure Project" witnesses are quality, credible people with stories that the media should take seriously. However, these good witnesses have been largely ignored because the people who present their testimony have no credibility, and their accounts are mixed in with those of frauds, con-men and loons.

People like Mr. Viggiani say, "well, you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater".

This statement misses the point completely.

The blame for the indifference shown to the legitimate witnesses goes directly to people like Mr. Viggiani and Mr. Bird, who, by continuing to associate with and promote Dr. Greer and the exopolitics "movement," actively keep the baby in the bathwater.

As Errol said, you only get one chance to make a good first impression. On May 9th, the organizers of the Exopolitics press conference are going to blow that one chance right out of the water.

Oh, Canada...

Paul Kimball

18 comments:

Alfred Lehmberg said...

Kimball: Last September, Paul Hellyer, an octogenarian former Canadian Minister of the National Defence (from the 1960s), came forward and stated that he believed ET was here on Earth, and that the government was involved in a massive cover-up of this knowledge. Where did this knowledge come from? He read Phil Corso's Day After Roswell, and that convinced him.

Lehmberg: MMMMmmm-no and a tad disingenuous Mr. Kimball. Corso only piqued an interest. What _began_ to convince Mr. Hellyer was a subsequent General Officer who confirmed much of what Corso had to say...

...Political Centrist, huh? And what's with the constant and irrelevant reference to age? Better hope for more respectful treatment when you're the octogenarian ...

alienview@adelphia.net
www.AlienView.net
AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/

Mac said...

Look on the bright side -- the Canadian flashlight industry will mushroom!

Paul Kimball said...

Mac:

I'm thinking of buying stock in a flashlight manufacturer, although maybe batteries would be a better bet - unless Dr. Greer has finally figured out how to power the flashlights with free energy!

Mr. Lehmberg:

Corso did more than just pique Mr. Hellyer's interest. He accepted what he heard, hook line and sinker (or is that "stinker"), which is clear if you look at his statements since last September (all of them) in their entirety. As for the anonymous general, call me old-fashioned, but I'll believe it when I see it. Ufology is littered with people who have had things "confirmed" by anonymous sources. What is more significant is the fact that Corso's book has been thoroughly discredited by a ream of UFO researchers (including many whom you champion as top-notch), and yet it forms the core of Mr. Hellyer's views.

As for him being an octogenerarian, I have a great deal of respect for seniors... but that doesn't mean that one can't question whether they are, to be polite, not a bit "past it" in some cases. That's not a "left" or "right" thing - it's just the facts of life. Besides, it seems to me more than a few leftists harped for years on Ronald Reagan's age and declining faculties, and he was YOUNGER while President than Mr. Hellyer is now. It's also more relevant than the fact that Mr. Hellyer was a cabinet minister 40 years ago.

But maybe this is something you should be bringing up with Errol this weekend on SDI, as he and I (and so many others) are in agreement.

Paul

Alfred Lehmberg said...

That agreement is not as complete as you would have it, Mr. Kimball, I suspect, or as rich as you would imply here. That said, your tone (just off high "C" and in a minor register) coupled with explication (reflexively dismissive and sneeringly disrespectful) speak well enough for themselves.

Hellyer's a "liar" in addition to being "past it" ... intellectually?

Can you put together a case for either counselor? ...Or are you just being old fascist... I mean... fashioned? [g].

alienview@adelphia.net
www.AlienView.net
AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/

Paul Kimball said...

Mr. Lehmberg:

You do have trouble staying on point, don't you? You like to distract people's attention with a turn of a phrase, or the sheer weight of verbiage. It doesn't work with me, alas.

"And as I’ve said to Victor [Viggiani], my concern for Victor is that he’s going to get dragged down and tarred with the same brush as all of these other people. Exopolitics ain’t going to work. They have one run at it here and they’re going to blow it."

That sounds like agreement to me on the point in question here, which is exopolitics, Dr. Greer, and Mr. Viggiani's support of them. I never claimed that Errol and I agree on anything beyond that. However, as I said, why don't you ask him this weekend directly about this quote.

Or would it be easier for you to just do the same old schtick that you always do?

In terms of Mr. Hellyer, your response is no response at all. As for whether he is being truthful or not, who knows, as none of us knows who this supposed General is. And if Mr. Hellyer is being less than truthful, he wouldn't be the first politician to be guilty of that sin, would he? Why should we assume that he is any more honest than the next guy, particularly given his checkered, erratic career? Just because he agrees with you? I can only imagine what you would say about him if he had come forth and said, "UFOs? Nothing to them." My opinion of him wouldn't have changed one bit, because it's based on the facts, not a wish to believe or disbelieve what he's saying. Besides, the onus, as any good lawyer will tell you, is on the person trying to prove his case, like Mr. Hellyer. Anonymous Generals just don't cut it.

As for the "fascist" thing, you demean both yourself and the people who have suffered under fascism when you toss stuff like that about to make what you think is a clever debating point. A shame you can't think of anything more intelligent to say about the actual issues here - especially the baneful effect of Dr. Greer and exopolitics on ufology.

Too bad, because you could probably offer something constructive if you set your mind to it.

But then there's that radio show this weekend. Perhaps you'll have that chat with Errol.

Stan "the debunker"* Friedman will be there, too - perhaps you should ask him what he thinks of Dr. Greer, Mr. Hellyer, and exopolitics.

Paul Kimball

* A label recently attached to him (and Kevin Randle and Brad Sparks) by Michael Salla, another exopolitical fellow-traveller.

Paul Kimball said...

And, to make sure there is no further question over the facts of Mr. Hellyer's endorsement of the Corso book prior to any chat with a "general", here is the verbatim transcript of his speech at the Exopolcon last September in Toronto:

http://www.jerrypippin.com/UFO%20Magazine%20Hon.%20Paul%20Hellyer.pdf

Mr. Hellyer only contacted the "general" a couple of days before he spoke at Toronto, and well after he had already agreed to speak there based on Corso's book. The "general" only came into the picture AFTER Mr. Hellyer had endorsed the the book to his nephew - it was the nephew who initially contacted the "general", not Mr. Hellyer, who had already accepted Corso's book as what he called the "unimpeachable source of what I am going to say to you today" at the Toronto conference.

"Unimpeachable source."

He also added that "every word of it is true, and more."

Uh huh.

Mr. Hellyer's words, not mine.

Paul Kimball

Alfred Lehmberg said...

Mr. Kimball! You're like a guilty badger in a hole!

"Crazy liar"! _Your_ turned phrase, young Sir! Can you make a case? Or is it your dodgy *paulitics* coupled with a complete inability to accept a gentle chiding (hence the emoticon) making you so bellicose and long-winded (yourself!) this iteration?

...And whatever happened to that nice review of my music you had over here for awhile, eh?

alienview@adelphia.net
www.AlienView.net
AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/

Alfred Lehmberg said...

I read with interest the article you referenced. I'm not the least bit surprised that you took Mr. Hellyer out of context insisting as you do on either coal-black or lilly-white when there are only _ever_ shades of gray possible.

You _didn't_ say that Mr. Hellyer was piqued by a statement made by the late Peter Jennings to pick up Corso's book at all. You _didn't_ mention properly that Hellyer's conversation with a skeptical nephew about the book provoked that nephew to contact someone he felt ought to be "in the know" confirming the book "and more"... further compelling Hellyer to contact the reported GO himself to confirm same. You didn't mention that this sequence I've just outlined is what compelled Hellyer to a more decidedly decisive position than you have ever been capable of... that Corso's book could be taken as that "unimpeachable source" about which you are so willing to bray accusingly...

Par for the Kimballian course? Make the data fit your already arrived upon conclusions?

It remains, Mr. Kimball, that an "other" seems to exist, and if that other exists? Then politics is the only thing we _know_ in which to approach that *other*...

It may be that we don't respect some of the prime movers behind the exercise to prosecute this *politics*... Corso seems caught short on details and Greer is said to take credit for work not his own... ...The rest are outside your limited purview of conflicted conservatism and you seem to be more of a data dragger than a data follower, anyway, making any input you have on the subject suspicious at the very least.

...But nice try.

alienview@adelphia.net
www.AlienView.net
AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/

The Odd Emperor said...

Well Paul, you can take solace in one thing.

For every goof we send up there, four come out of the woodwork here!

Paul Kimball said...

Mr. Lehmberg:

I didn't say any of that stuff because I assume people will go to the link I provided and read for themselves. The relevant part (you should really look up "relevant" in a dictionary) is the stuff about Corso - THAT is where he got his conviction that aliens are real from, and THAT is the book that he cites as the absolute truth and an unimpeachable source. You don't make the data fit your own pre-conceived conclusions - you ignore it completely! Call it Lehmberg-ism.

I can only presume that as you don't want to discuss those FACTS, then you agree with Mr. Hellyer about Corso - which says all anyone should need to know about your objectivity and common sense.

As for a sense of humour, to paraphrase Ben Stone, when it's about fascism, sir, I have none.

Paul Kimball

Alfred Lehmberg said...

Mr Pettingill;

Push a sock in it...

Mr. Kimball;

Hence the assertion that you drag data. It remains Hellyer arrived at Corso but did not start there. As to the bating with regard to a ridiculously specious challenge to come down black or white on Corso? Sorry. It's all decidedly gray to me... maybe babies should not go out with bathwater.

Politics -- it's all we know, Mr. Kimball. I would really think, given your professed interest in the vagaries of it, that you'd understand that.

Where are we for you making a case that Hellyer is, and I paraphrase, a "lying whacko"?

Mr. Pettingill;

DEEPER!

alienview@adelphia.net
www.AlienView.net
AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/

Paul Kimball said...

Mr. Lehmberg:

Sorry, no gray - Mr. Hellyer, by his own statements, is black and white on Corso, no matter how much you might try to apologize for that uncomfortable fact. This also misses the central point of the original post, which was that inviting Dr. Greer to Canada is a HUGE mistake.

As for Mr. Hellyer and the General, for heaven's sake, stop trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't say he was lying. What I said was (and I'll quote directly again so that there's no misunderstanding):

"As for the anonymous general, call me old-fashioned, but I'll believe it when I see it. Ufology is littered with people who have had things "confirmed" by anonymous sources."

AND

"As for whether he is being truthful or not, who knows, as none of us knows who this supposed General is. And if Mr. Hellyer is being less than truthful, he wouldn't be the first politician to be guilty of that sin, would he? Why should we assume that he is any more honest than the next guy, particularly given his checkered, erratic career? Just because he agrees with you?"

AND

"Besides, the onus, as any good lawyer will tell you, is on the person trying to prove his case, like Mr. Hellyer. Anonymous Generals just don't cut it."

Now, if you can find some place in any of my comments where I said Mr. Hellyer was lying, or even implied that I thought he was lying, be my guest. Otherwise, perhaps you should move on to another, more valid, point.

The truth is that he may be lying. Or he may be nuts. Or he may just be senile. Or he may be telling the truth as to what he heard, but was fed some BS by a general playing a prank. Or he may be telling the truth, and Corso was right, etc etc. I don't think there's much of a chance for that last option (nor do any serious UFO researchers I know, including Dick Hall, Stan Friedman, Kevin Randle, Brad Sparks, Jerry Clark... it's a long list), so that means one of the aforementioned options is the most likely one.

Which is it? Who knows? But it reminds me of the same BS that Wilbert Smith supposedly got from Robert Sarbacher, confirming that the details in Frank Scully's similarly bogus and discredited book "Behind the Flying Saucers" were accurate.

A general, even if he exists, that confirms Corso's book as real is merely confirming bunk, which means that, even should he exist, his opinion / word is worthless - just as Sarbacher's was.

Paul Kimball

P.S. To both Mr. Lehmberg and the Odd Emperor - I'm not going to pick sides here, but I am going to insist on a certain degree of civility at MY blog towards other commenters. I will edit out any future comments that deviate from that standard.

Alfred Lehmberg said...

Fair enough! I'll stoke the fires on the AlienViewsNews page... ...and damn it, Sir, I have to agree that the inclusion of Greer, given the mere _existence_ of Hall, Clark, and Friedman, _is_ an unfortunate mistake.

Is this three things we agree on? Next is a civil union, we adopt some kids and move to New Hampshire?

alienview@adelphia.net
www.AlienView.net
AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/

Paul Kimball said...

Mr. Lehmberg:

Great suffering Zorgrot! It does appear we are in some sort of agreement, which may represent one of the seven signs of the apocalypse! :-)

I wish the first major new conference in Canada had adopted what I called The Sturrock Gambit some time ago.

See: http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/20
05/08/combating-condon-effect-sturrock.html

I know some folks think the ETH is the ETF, but it just isn't. Based on the available evidence, that's not a leap most people will take, even as many will admit that it's a possibility. That doesn't seem to be enough for ETH adherents, but it's what the evidence will support (as Dr. Sturrock, no anti-UFO guy he, made clear). Still, guys like me say that guys like you have put the cart well before the horse, and guys like you say that guys like me are stuck in neutral, or headed backwards (er... to paraphrase).

But, given the choice between a slow ship, and no ship at all (and that's the choice on offer), I'll always choose the slow ship. Ufology, if it is to move into the 21st century, needs some money and institutional support, to do some of those things that Kyle King, James Smith, and others have advocated (i.e. instrumented studies, ets.) - and that requires a measured and cautious approach, i.e. the Sturrock Gambit.

If only THAT was the press conference being held. Instead of talking about Phil Corso and Paul Hellyer, they should be handing out copies of The UFO Evidence, Vol. I and II, along with books by Hynek, Vallee, and Sturrock, and papers by McDonald. Throw in some comments from the world's top scientists (i.e. Michio Kaku) saying we should keep an open mind, and you might actually convince the government (i.e. the Deaprtment of Science and Technology in Canada) to fund some sort of study, as they are doing in France. And then who knows where it goes from there? The possibilities are endless.

However, Canada gets Dr. Greer, Mr. Hellyer and Phil Corso.

Sigh...

Paul Kimball

P.S. New Hampshire? Nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there (although a cottage in the summer and winter would be nice, and we Maritime Canadians do LOVE our cross-border shopping in North Conway).

rifraft said...

I just went to a Mark Kimmal lecture. I had never heard of the guy but it seems he is down with this disclosure paridyne. It was insane. He basically said whatever we believe in was right. From center earth people to Guia earth. Angles, celestral beings. I brought up some points about how the contact movement did more to make the UFO idea a waste of time then anthing the skeptics could do. Of course I am part of the "Dark Side". This is very scary business. I was with a friend who I am trying to get to look at the science behind UFOs. He thought they were nuts. I felt and I still feel it was more sinsier than that. Here we go with "COntactee" epsoide 2
rif

Paul Kimball said...

Rif:

I was talking to one ufologist who, when told that Dr. Greer seemed to be implying recently that fellow exopolitics guru Dr. Michael Salla might be some sort of disinformation agent / asset, said, "It takes one to know one."

I don't buy it - I think other things are at work that have more to do with money, ego, and belief, but who knows? As of May 9th, Dr. Greer will be 2 for 2 when it comes to torpedoing the prospect of legislative hearings (Congress in the US, Parliament in Canada) on the UFO phenomenon.

Paul

Anonymous said...

Its you that is nuts. You are a blind follower. Hellyer is telling you the truth about lots of stuff. Aliens I ccannot comment on but the real things such as the conspiracy of NAFTA/Free Trade and the Americanization of Canada - thats 100% fact.

You are just to "wanna be" to realize that your "leaders" have no use for you but as there slave. THATS A FACT JACK!

Its your attitude that enables them.

Paul Kimball said...

Anon:

Sure. Whatever.

Paul